what sports to what?

what sports to what?

Postby illustrator » January 29th, 2013, 10:58 pm

Hi all,

Warning: this is about genetics and a wild theory :lool:

Most "new" variations in violets start as "sports": the first variegated plant was a sport and the first double and so on. But most sports are not looking so unique, often a plant with one flower colour sports into a plant with another flower colour but neither the old nor the new colour is unique.

I am wondering about these sports, could it possibly be that the parent plant is heterozygous for some character and it sports to a homozygous recessive state? Example: a plant can have blue flowers, but can carry the recessive character for pink flowers if one of its ancestors had pink flowers. Then it is (theoretically) possibe that the blue flowered one sports into a pink flowering plant because of a crossing over.

If this is what happens, it should be much more common that a plant with a dominant character sports into one with a recessive character than the other way round. So a blue flowered plant can sport into a pink flowered or a white one, but very rarely will a white flowered plant sport into a blue or a pink one. Could this be?

Would it be fun to a small list of examples of "what has sported into what" to test this wild hypothesis from me?

(Why I come to this: from the botanical garden I got a vintage no-name which was a bunch of plants grown from a single leaf. Most are green with green stems but one has red stems and red veins on the underside of the leaves. I suspect that this plant has sported, but which one is the sport and which is the "original"? If my hypothesis is correct, it would be more likely that the red-stemmed plant is the original and the bunch of green ones are all a sports. I don't know yet how they flower ... )
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Re: what sports to what?

Postby botan » January 30th, 2013, 10:34 am

heterozygous for some character and it sports to a homozygous recessive state?

It can't became homozygous without sexual reproduction. The sports are caused by spontaneous mutations. It is not necessary to be something huge, to be changed one amino acid is pretty enough for change in the color of the blossom. When we reproduce them by leaves the plantlets have one-cell origin from the epidermis of the leaf stalk. Usually there are some stages in multiplication of the cell genome that can fix it, if there are any mistakes, but they aren't perfect. We also have a lots of mutations on the skin, but we can't reproduce vegetatively and that's why they remain hidden from us. I am sure that I have at least one ginger-green-eyed cell and I suspect it is on my mustache, because I found one ginger hair there. :mrgreen:
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Re: what sports to what?

Postby illustrator » January 30th, 2013, 9:58 pm

here's a list of registered sports with their descriptions:

http://miniviolets.ru/african_violet_sports.pdf

Looking at flowers colour only and excluding plants which sported to chimera's:

medium blue -- white

white to yellow -- pink/yellow blush

dark pink -- white with variable blue-violet eye, rays and edge

dark pink -- pink with variable red eye, variable red rays

rose-pink -- blush pink/variable green tips

light blue, dark blue tips -- white

white -- pink, blue fantasy

red -- white, red eye, some rays

white, variable blue-marked eye, edge -- dark blue

Conclusion: Botan, you are right. This little list already appears to be a mix of dominant to recessive and the other way round.

Question: can these plants mutate back-and-forth?

And a remark: I think that the descriptions may be too inaccurate to do these comparisons with. Genetically a very pale blue (almost white) is very different from a pure white, but in both cases the description probably states just "white". Anyway, it's fun playing with little theories and intriguing when they don't work ...
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Re: what sports to what?

Postby illustrator » January 30th, 2013, 10:08 pm

To come back to why I started this topic: I now assume that the red stemmed plant is the sport while the green stemmed one is the "original, because there were several green stemmed plants together with only one red stemmed plant. Will see how they will flower.
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Re: what sports to what?

Postby botan » January 31st, 2013, 1:21 pm

Yes they can mutate back-and-forth, but they will be sport of the sport and because of that it may take while until you strike a mutated cell that will give you plantlet with the characteristic of the sort.
illustrator wrote:To come back to why I started this topic: I now assume that the red stemmed plant is the sport while the green stemmed one is the "original, because there were several green stemmed plants together with only one red stemmed plant. Will see how they will flower.

About that you can't say is it sport or not without knowing how the mother plant looked like. It can be a mutation in one cell, it can be a mutation in a patch, it can be the whole leaf caring mutant DNA, depending on that when the cell mutated.
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Re: what sports to what?

Postby illustrator » January 31st, 2013, 8:59 pm

Then I will probably never know.

Would a sport of a vintage no-name be anything like "almost-vingage"? I guess it is just a "new no-name variety" with possibly characteristics of a vintage plant ... Before seeing it flowering there is no way to tell if it is any different from a modern comerceal variety in this particular case.
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Re: what sports to what?

Postby botan » February 1st, 2013, 6:58 pm

It is not necessary to be new. It could be a registrated one but nobody knows. ;)
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Re: what sports to what?

Postby illustrator » February 1st, 2013, 9:42 pm

I am not sure:

if a plant sports repeatedly in the same way, are all the sports technically the same/with the same name?

Frozen in Time (white, green edge) has a sport called Frosty Frolic (pale blue, green edge). If Frozen in Time again sports into a pale blue flowered plant, is it then automatically Frosty Frolic? I suppose that there is no way to know for sure if the new sport has exactly the same mutation as the original one. I would personally only call the direct decendents of the "original" Frosty Frolic by this name, and not later sports which look the same. Is there any rule for this?
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Re: what sports to what?

Postby botan » February 2nd, 2013, 12:55 am

Yes it is Frosty Frolic. There could be several different mutations that cause the blue coloration but the phenotype is more important. This is what you see, and this is what you expect. Is it real if you don't see it? Why do you think we don't make the descriptions with DNA sequences?
When you mention Frozen in time, it's chimera, Ko's Green Dragon fly, have a identical twin called Moroznoe Utro, because one of them was obtained from Frozen in time and the other from Frosty Frolic. For me, they are ab-so-lu-te-ly one sort but with 2 names. That would happened if we separate the different mutations that cause the same thing - a huge mess up.
I would call those mutations negligible.
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