Birthmarkings, leaf chimera and darkening of the violets

Birthmarkings, leaf chimera and darkening of the violets

Postby botan » January 20th, 2012, 11:45 pm

Karina wrote:RS-Zelenaia Laguna (S. Repkina)
Image

Karina, I LOVE the chimeral leaves that you show on your plant! love: love: love:
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Re: Birthmarkings, leaf chimera and darkening of the violets

Postby Laci » January 21st, 2012, 12:26 am

My LE-Svet v Nochi has the same pattern on the leaves. Is it a virus or a mutation?
Last edited by HankaP on March 4th, 2012, 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: LE-Svet v Nochi (= light in the night)
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Re: Birthmarkings, leaf chimera and darkening of the violets

Postby botan » January 21st, 2012, 12:45 pm

Now I'm really jealous! :twisted: :lol:
It's chimera which is mutation. The chimera organism have cells with different genotypes. Its possible also to be fake chimera, then the genotype of all cells is identical but the expression of the genes is different like fantasy sorts.
Leaf chimeras aint really stable so I recommend you to try leaf propagation to know how to proceed in future to save the pattern. If its true chimera you will only separate the genotypes in that way (you will get only dark green leaved plants or light green). The percent to get a true chimera from leaf is tiny like a fly on moon, but if its fake then you will get mosaic shoots identical to the parent.
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Re: Birthmarkings, leaf chimera and darkening of the violets

Postby Valkiria » January 21st, 2012, 2:10 pm

Why do you think it is chimera? There are spots of different color on leaves. They are also called "birthmarks" and they can despair on next, new leaves.
I had and have some varieties which like time-to-time to spot with darker colors on leaves. But usually they get back their normal color with several new leaves.

Sometimes, the darker spots conduct to modification in the entire plant. First, there appear darker markings, then the new leaves darken at all. Also is happening to the flowers. If they have to be white with little blue, they became white with a lot of blue, and then darken at all, becoming just blue. The plant become sport. This issue is happening very often to varieties like Iceberg, Arctic Frost, Lyon's Spectacular, and other varieties alike.
I intend to belive that Karina's plant is becoming sport. That's why the flowers are more blue then it is mentioned in description, and the leaves also become darker, and finally will darken at all.

Chimera leaves have darker or lighter stripe in the center of each leave.
This is for example, Rob's Lucky Penny:
Image
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Re: Birthmarkings, leaf chimera and darkening of the violets

Postby botan » January 21st, 2012, 5:02 pm

Oh nooo the chimeras aren't every time so well-arranged like Lucky Penny!
I will take for example variegation. In most cases variegated plants are chimeras, and you know how many different types of variegation plants have.
Tommie Lou variegation in saintpaulias is example for fake chimera, because if you put entirely white part from the leaf in-vitro you will get a plant with TL variegation instead of albino plant, and besides every one know that TL variegated plants can propagate with leaves.
This "birthmarks" you are talking about, I don't know how they look like, so I can't tell you nothing, but as I was saying leaf chimeras aren't very stable so they can turn into normal plants because one of the cell types in the plant take advantage at the other. The chimera that you show is one of the most stable one at this time, but as you can see (the dark green blotches) it's also quite unstable.
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Re: Birthmarkings, leaf chimera and darkening of the violets

Postby Valkiria » January 22nd, 2012, 12:50 am

I understand what are you talking about. I haven't study this issue so profound.
I was explaining about common senses of chimeras and non-chimeras.
If the weather will be fine tomorrow (it is snowing and is very cloudy now in Bucharest), I'll take some pictures to my Iceberg, which has made such spots recently.
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Re: Birthmarkings, leaf chimera and darkening of the violets

Postby botan » January 22nd, 2012, 3:42 pm

If it's not today some other day. Image
I red about those "birthmarks" you are talking about, and I saw a few pictures and my opinion is that they are chimeras too hiding under birthmark name.
http://dimetris.com.ua/site/all/kak_sohranit_himery
I'm glad that you understand me, but I think I didn't understand you quite well, and I'm really sorry for that. :oops:
May be it will be better to separate themes, because I think chimeral/birthmark theme is interesting and unlock lots of debates. happy03:
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Re: Birthmarkings, leaf chimera and darkening of the violets

Postby Valkiria » January 23rd, 2012, 2:12 pm

I have made the pictures, the sun came out of the clouds :)
Now I need time to upload them to the album, after work. Then, I will try to split the posts related to chimera leaves, birthmarks and darkening of the violets to another topic. :)
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Re: Birthmarkings, leaf chimera and darkening of the violets

Postby Valkiria » January 23rd, 2012, 9:53 pm

Here I am with the pics and the story. I'll tell you about my Iceberg.

This is it description:
Iceberg (9168) 02/03/2003 (Lyndon Lyon Greenhouses/Sorano) Semidouble-double white star/blue ruffled edge. Medium green, plain, wavy. Standard.

For the first time it bloomed with white flowers and just a very thin, interrupted blue edge. Some flowers where just white. I must search for the pictures of that first bloom in the main computer, where all of them are stored.
The second bloom was with a large band of blue, and some flowers have almost entirely blue petals. Here are some pictures:

Image
Image

The flowers begin to shade, to darken. Also, on the leaves have appeared dark-red spots on new leaves, which spread on the newest leaves more and more.

Here you can see the pictures of the darkening leaves:
Image
Image
The spots can be seen on the rosette:
Image

The older leaves are just green:
Image

Here you can see some other pictures of darkening Iceberg:
http://www.dimetris.com.ua/forum/viewto ... c&start=45
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Re: Birthmarkings, leaf chimera and darkening of the violets

Postby Valkiria » January 23rd, 2012, 10:16 pm

And here it is my second rosette of RS-Zelenaia Laguna, which has also dark spots on leaves, and the flowers have more blue then the first one:

Second rosette of RS-Zelenaia Laguna:
Image
Image

First rosette of RS-Zelenaia Laguna with white flowers and just little blue, and green without spots leaves:
Image
Image
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Re: Birthmarkings, leaf chimera and darkening of the violets

Postby Valkiria » January 23rd, 2012, 10:28 pm

I had enough plants which at a certain moment have shown dark birth markings, and began to bloom with darker flowers.
These where Rossie Ruffles, Nancy Leigh.
Dark birth markings on leaves have shown also EK-Belaia Koroleva, even the flowers remain clear white. But there are already cases when EK-Belaia Koroleva have made pink-flowers.
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Re: Birthmarkings, leaf chimera and darkening of the violets

Postby maki01 » January 23rd, 2012, 11:22 pm

I got confused :? Does my Rob's Kitten Caboodle has the chimera leaves Valkiria?

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Re: Birthmarkings, leaf chimera and darkening of the violets

Postby botan » January 23rd, 2012, 11:38 pm

Of course when the plant starts to synthesize more pigments in the leaves this will affect and the flower. I see one beautiful chimeral flower on your Iceberg. Those birthmarks may be caused by strong light. The plant synthesize more pigmens for protection.

Maki01, no, your plant have crown variegation, which is not a chimeral.
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Re: Birthmarkings, leaf chimera and darkening of the violets

Postby Galina » January 26th, 2012, 3:57 pm

RS-Zelenaia Laguna is not chimeral. This variety tends to darkening. Gradually, the leaves become dark and the blue flower.
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Re: Birthmarkings, leaf chimera and darkening of the violets

Postby botan » January 26th, 2012, 4:13 pm

On Karina's photo light and dark spots look pretty sharp, that fooled me to think its chimera. :roll:
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Re: Birthmarkings, leaf chimera and darkening of the violets

Postby illustrator » March 16th, 2012, 9:52 pm

RS-Zelenaia Laguna:

The darkening of younger leaves, compared to older leaves, can also be caused by more light. I see this every year in my wild violets, more in some species, less in others. In winter they are very green, especially the underside of the leaves and the leafstalks. Now the sun is stronger and days are longer, and the new leaves have a much more pigmented underside and leafstalk. This is NEITHER a chimera NOR birthmarks.

But Karina's plant looks like it could well be a plant with birthmarks. The way to know is to grow it for a longer time and see if further leaves also look like this and then to propagate it by leafcuttings. If this characteristic remains stable over at least 3 generations, you can actually give it a name and register it as a sport of RS-Zelenaia Laguna. (You can also just call it "Zelena Laguna Sport").

I had a no-name miniature for a while which had very pronounced birthmarks. Each leaf was differently patterned, but all had it more or less and it stayed also stable when i propagated it with leafcuttings.

I also had a leaf-chimera at that time, which I got by propagating chimera "Sharon" (Humako, from the local plantshop) by leafcuttings. This was an interesting "experiment" in several ways. The leaf-chimera had light green leaves with a darker blotch in the middle. It started with only some leaves with this characteristic, on one side of the plant. When the plant grew larger, all new leaves had this pattern. Another plant which I stopped growing in favour of wild violets ... But it shows that it is possible to obtain leaf chimera's by propagating leafcuttings from a flower-chimera. This is a matter of chance, so the best way to do this is to set as many leaves as possible and then grow as many plantlets as possible to about the size of a miniature violet. The chance is supposed to be small, but I actually got 2 leaf-chimera's out of about 20 plantlets or so. What I did NOT get is another flower-chimera like the parent plant: they all had white flowers (but: stars! The parent, Humako's Sharon, is a flower-chimera with pansy shaped flowers!).
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