Spider flowers

Longifolia, clackamus, busle foliage. Bell, wasp type of flowers. Other characteristics.

Re: Spider flowers

Postby illustrator » March 18th, 2012, 10:12 am

Maybe this confusion can be solved in another way. What if there are 2 different mutations and the result is both called "wasp", but anyway slightly different?

Like:
Wasp I = all petals completely separated
Wasp II = upper petals long and narrow, almost separated

And then Spider can be either Wasp I+star or Wasp II+star

And it could well be that Wasp II is nothing more than the heterozygous form of Wasp I. Someone like Senk should be able to tell this ...
Another way to sort this out is to self-fertilize Lunar Lily White and see what comes out. It would be nessesary to grow quite many of the ofspring to flowering, I think at least 20, better more. If this hypothesis is correct, LLW x LLW should give some normal pansies, some Lunar Luly White (Wasp II) type flowers and some Wasp I type flowers. And perhaps other characteristics like stars, spiders e.t.c., but that depends on LLW's ancestory. So who has the space and patience to try this?

And please let's stay polite on this forum. It is OK to disagree, but then come with friendly arguments and don't shoot someone personally.
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby botan » March 18th, 2012, 11:47 am

I'm sorry I didn't choose my words correctly. Maybe I was little disappointed because you all take his opinion like a constant which I find very wrong and which may leads you to wrong inferences. He has name, but so what? He can't be wrong? If he told you to jump out of a cliff would you do it? ;)
I agree with you illustrator but there are two homozygous forms, so the true wasp (I) will looks like that (LLWw, LlWw, LLWW, LlWW) and the wasp II (which is the spider flower) will look like this (LLww, Llww), and this perfectly explains why there are so many wasps and so little spiders. So if we self pollinate LLW and if we are right, and if the relationship between these two genes is complete dominance, we must have in F1 3/4 pansy spiders and 1/4 star spiders or all pansy spiders.
L- pansy
l - star
W - wasp
w - spider
LLW - Lunar Lily White
It is quite dodgy and complicated theme, and because the English isn't our mother language of most of us we get easily confused, so I want to make an apology again if I insult someone, it wasn't in purpose.
I will try to contact personally with Dr. Smith to explain me why he think that. :)
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby avisrapax » March 18th, 2012, 2:20 pm

In this case I leaned towards agreeing with Dr. Smith as his own conclusions were pretty much the same as my own hunches were. My 'trust' in his judgement is nothing to do with letters or a Dr. in his name - it's because he's done so many crosses and experiments. I also value the opinion of other growers I know who've grown and crossed a lot of plants because they have experience which I do not have and experience / data counts for a lot more than my opinion or what I have read - I've certainly read a lot of misinformation people have about violets, 'yay' for the internet ;) I have always been told that in science we must question whether things are true but, to do so, we really need data. I'd agree with you that pansy definitely seems more likely as a base (mainly, to me, because it only has two pollen sacs!) but I'd like to see why he says it is star. Star shape gives some really weird habits to the flower - it's not just a star shape, it's a peloric flower mutation as far as I knew? Some stars you can only tell they are stars by looking at the number of pollen sacs available! Star genetics seem to have an odd effect if they are in a genetic background, as does wasp. They interact interestingly.

One thing it might be is that he's simply seen a different flower or has had something else shown to him as a 'spider' flower. I'd never heard of that term before this thread and personally I'd have just called it a wasp or pansy. Where does the term spider come from? Who defined it? Who has decided what it is and did they use a reason other than 'this plant looks a bit different'? I would find the answers to these questions interesting and it might be why we're having trouble defining what we mean when we say 'spider' flower.

Randomly, the flowers on lunar lily white remind me of petrocosmeas - especially rosettifolia =)

I'd also be careful about using basic punnet square genetics for something like this - they are useful but don't always work well where there are more complex interactions.
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby illustrator » March 18th, 2012, 2:39 pm

Maybe I should rephrase my argument:

To me the flowers of Lunar lily White look very different from those of Blue Tail Fly. Both are called wasp-type flowers, but Blue Tail Fly has in addition bustle foliage. Lunar Lily has again different flowers, which give me the impression of the type of Blue Tail fly combined with star shape. (not looking at colours, of course)

Are there any varieties which have bustle foliage and which do NOT have wasp flowers?
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby botan » March 18th, 2012, 4:33 pm

avisrapax wrote:I'd agree with you that pansy definitely seems more likely as a base (mainly, to me, because it only has two pollen sacs!) but I'd like to see why he says it is star.

Yes it is interesting to me too, this would be one of my questions to him but maybe it will be better Laci to write him, because he already has this contact.
avisrapax wrote: I'd never heard of that term before this thread and personally I'd have just called it a wasp or pansy. Where does the term spider come from? Who defined it? Who has decided what it is and did they use a reason other than 'this plant looks a bit different'?

I red about this in here http://dimetris.ru/news/articles/formy-cvetov-senpoliy, I've never seen this term in english so I think it comes somewhere from the russian-speaking counties.
avisrapax wrote:I'd also be careful about using basic punnet square genetics for something like this - they are useful but don't always work well where there are more complex interactions.

Yes I know there are many gene relationships thats why I write so many "if"s ;)

Paul, I don't know of any. confused:
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby illustrator » March 18th, 2012, 10:04 pm

Could it be that there are 2 different mutations which both modify the flowers, but only one causes also bustle foliage? And plants with eiter mutation are called "wasps" because of the modified flower shape?
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby HankaP » March 18th, 2012, 11:13 pm

I can't meddle in your genetic considerations, I do not have the necessary knowledge - so only something from my position of the amateur explorer:

I am also seen this definition of a spider (narrow and long petals...) only on Russian sites, exclusively in connection with the Lunar Lily White. That is why I wrote that is not good to introduce a parallel terminology, if the Americans use this term for another type of flower...

The definition from Dimetris:
Паук - узкие удлиненные лепестки как бы охватывают полусферу (Lunar Lily-white).
(Spider - Elongated narrow petals, as though hugs a hemisphere (Lunar Lily-white).)

The origin of Lunar Lily White (the conclusions of discussions at http://www.senpoliamini.ru/forums/index ... 0Lily&st=0 and http://www.flowersweb.info/forum/forum5 ... /messages/):

Lunar Lily White first appeared in Odessa in about 1999, bought in the shop, from the Dutch production. The name Lunar Lily came a bit later, probably accidentally, and with this name is spread throughout the country. Later joined the word white to distinguish from the original Lunar Lily.

Among other things here offer assumption that it could be a sport from Optimara Little Crystal (or from Optimara Little Apatite, because OLC is a sport from them, too), or from Optimara Glacier. (Optimara as a possible original source - see the analogy with some other sorts from Dutch mass production - e.g. à la Optimara Millenia or à la Rhapsodie Cora...)

In my opinion, the resemblance with Optimara Little Crystal is really considerable - by photos on the internet OLC is quite variable, but on some photos it has really close to LLW...

E.g. from http://www.dollyyeh.idv.tw/2006avsa_show.htm
Image

or from http://sgvozdeva123.narod.ru/December_2007_2.html
Image

And for comparison one of the photos of Lunar Lily White from Dimetris - http://dimetris.ru/flower/senpolii/luna ... white/4161
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Re: Spider flowers

Postby HankaP » March 18th, 2012, 11:28 pm

Also I found some photos of Cool Hand Pink - but I must to admit, I am none the wiser... :-(
(http://www.grownotes.com/african-violets-1/)

Cool Hand Pink (J. Dates) Single pink wasp, slightly fluted; Medium green. Standard

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Re: Spider flowers

Postby SvetlanaBG » March 21st, 2012, 11:11 am

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Re: Spider flowers

Postby SvetlanaBG » March 21st, 2012, 11:13 am

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